What I do when I should be studying...or not taking part in a Reality Television show
This might sound like a philosophical treatise - but it's not
Published on May 19, 2004 By notsohighlyevolved In Blogging
Arguments and the limits of our knowledge:

I have found in many discussions here at JU recently, that my knowledge of a great many subjects is let’s say…deficient or wanting.

I never used to believe that argument is good for its own sake, or for the benefit of logic and its exercise.

I never used to believe that argument is necessary to call into action the faculties of the human mind that are not stimulated by the operation of the microwave or the contorted complexities of using a remote control.

I never used to believe that argument could lead us to mutual understanding and a higher vantage point from which we could view our multifarious existence and judge if it had come to any good. Judge if it had pleased us as well as any God that might reside above, below or to the right hand side of us.

I used to believe in argument for the simple, infantile pleasure of winning. It is a strange thing to think back on now considering that I never won all that often.

“Let’s agree to disagree”; “Fine. GO SCREW YOURSELF”; “No, I don’t agree with you and I’m going home. Don’t call me”; “Marco. Please leave the room. You’re making the other children very upset”

I have heard all of the above at a consistent and unrelenting rate. What you never hear is, “Very good old chap. A remarkable performance and I tip my hat to you, Oh master of rhetoric, 15 – Nil, your way.”

JU has taught me a lesson of great value, something that exceeds the petty currency of gifts wrapped in paper and ribbon. I have finally understood one of the quantum principles of the universe - You can never argue to win. Persuade perhaps. Assuage, more often. Just never to win. To win is to have one more enemy than you had at the beginning. An enemy, even one, is not something that I desire or value.

So what has the past time of argument morphed into, what has it given me now that it failed to previously?

It makes me aware of the limits of my own knowledge, the limits of what I think I know and my naiveté when it comes to judging what it is that others know.

People here on JU have surprised and delighted me on so many occasions. I almost jump out of my chair thinking with joy that someone actually committed the time to committing that fact to memory – and then making sense of it, making it real and relevant.

It’s the difference between playing chess with a computer and then playing against a human opponent. Sometimes it’s not the game you are playing; it’s the person you play with and the conversation that come accompanied with them. Chess has limits (and I know many will disagree with me on this point), but people do not.

Argument has shown me how to find joy in humanity again. That apathy has a long way to go if it wants to vanquish our spirit.

In arguing about what is wrong with this world, we just might find something right with it.

Comments
on May 19, 2004
I agree, but very few people that I know anyway argue to be constructive, not to win. Some people just seem to thrive on confrontation. Sadly I'm not one of them.

Thanks for ur comment, but take it easy on New York huh? New Yorkers aren't all poseurs and fashion victims. Besides, I think New York has lost most of its grit lately. The only area I can think of that hasnt been completely made over (and therefore rendered utterly soulless and blank) is Hell's Kitchen. They're trying to turn NY into Los Angeles so you can barely smoke. It's still New York though, still smells like it at least. Like dirt and peanuts and mustard and blown out birthday candles and coffee.

Can I be nosy enough to ask what you're studying? I'm just interested...philosophy perhaps?

love Dyl xxx
on May 19, 2004
I agree:

Persuasion is the Point: Getting as Good as you Give.

Debate is an art, it is like thinking outloud in a group. You try perspectives and see what works. There doesn't have to be a winner, but everyone should be satisfied that they made themselves understood, I think.
on May 19, 2004
Dyl - Rest assured, New York is safe with me. I want to visit sooooo badly. The films of Woody Allen have given it a soul and the books of Tom Wolfe have given it a voice, I want the city itself to give me a part of my life, a confrontation of my expectations.

Have studied philosophy, but i'm officially studying Media and Psychology. I study a great many things, understand so little of them and am dissappointed to sparingly that i have become one of those beings who's a sucker for epistemological punishment,

BakerStreet - I see it that you are a connoisseur of the communicative arts. To want to be understood is to be human, to be understood is genius.

Marco XX
on May 19, 2004
The problem with arguments is that we often get our feelings involved. Debate has rules, but arguments often do not. Thus there is name calling and sometimes a refusal to acknowlege when a person arguing from the other side has made a valid point. That being said, Joe user has brought out my waning interest in politics.

It's good to see you blogging again Baker Street.
on May 19, 2004
Well said, but I believe that you get all types here from the verbal punchup (which soon gets boring) to the reasoned arguments from both sides....and every so often you do get someone conceding a point very rare. I agree with Sherye, many people get very emotional in their arguments. I have always considered it a sign of a weak argument when people get very emotional or agressive....they are getting worked up because they feel threatened and they feel threatened because they are not confident of their argument. I tend to steer clear of the emotional ones (they are the ones trying to 'win' arguments) unless it's on one of my posts.
on May 19, 2004

I understand where you're coming from on this... and I agree.  There was a time when I wanted to 'win' arguments too, but I've since learned that Rosie Perez was right in the movie "White Men Can't Jump"


"Sometimes when you win, you actually lose"


"Sometimes when you lose, you actually win"


"and sometimes when you win or lose, you actually tie"

on May 20, 2004
Sherye and Gerry - I don't particularly have anything against the utilisation of emotion in the service of argument. Emotion is the prime motivational factor when it comes to us getting off our lazy asses and doing anything.

But I agree, to personally attack the person you are debating with someone is the mark of weak character and should never be done. I just haven't encountered all that much of it on JU. IF it starts getting infantile walk away.

imajinit - I could have learnt the lesson soooo much earlier if wasn't for her accent.

Marco XX