What I do when I should be studying...or not taking part in a Reality Television show
That joke will probably be on me
Published on July 10, 2004 By notsohighlyevolved In Politics
Firstly, you’ll have to excuse the title. Knowing the limited readership of my blog, I wanted a title that might actually attract some of the more conservative of you here on JU.

Secondly. What is the point of this article? Well it’s not really an article as such; it’s more of a curious exploration, an attempted mapping of JU’s conservative topography. I want to know what it is to be either conservative/right-wing. What beliefs and opinions are necessary, and to what extent is this political leaning an integral part of your personality? Is it something that happens within a communicative context, as a reaction to what you hear and see, or is it a set of a priori beliefs that interact with world events and attitudes; is it a philosophy that guides your reactions to the world, or a philosophy that is a reaction of a reaction to the world? (That sounds kinda funny, but what can you do, thoughts and questions often don’t get along all that well with the written word)

Personally I have come to think of the Right as a three pronged fork – economic rationalism, social conservatism and the idea of benevolent international intervention.

The first sees politics as a way of constructing and setting up a series of economic institutions that protects the ability of business to operate in an unfettered and truly Global fashion, seeing this as the only way that economic prosperity can be obtained for the greatest number of people, not necessarily all people. Other than this initial thrust (and this thrust is still in the making, the movement, the idea, still being young) the government should not intervene, other than in times when such a system is under direct threat, in times of economic or socio-political crisis. The market will dictate in a way and with an efficiency which is impossible for the individual mind or small collective, given the complexity of the modern world, where resources should be allocated and how they should be used. This extends to almost all facets of life – even healthcare, education and the care of the more needy.

The second sees politics as a way of shoring up the moral order that has taken our civilisation millennia to formulate and implement through the workings and refinements of philosophical, scientific and religious systems. It espouses the ideal of tolerance, but not the ideal of an equal footing for all philosophies and world views, one must triumph so that the social order remains stable, so that there is security in what has taken us so long to build and what has been proven to work in the past. Other points of view can exist but they must always remain at the level of the individual or small, politically non-partisan groups. I find this one tougher than the other two as pluralism and legitimacy has always been hard to reconcile, we always find ourselves receding to a moral infinity, a line without end or resolution.

The third sees politics as a way to both defend your own country and its borders, but also as a way of defending alliances and interests overseas. With a world that is so interconnected, to not intervene would be foolish and self defeating. In past lessons, to not act on foreign shores is to invite that threat onto your own. A proactive defence is the only defence and to involve yourself politically with the world and its institutions must necessarily mean that your military must be willing to follow.

Now you know my very simple framework for understanding the Right and I am aware that it’s somewhat unsophisticated and conventional, but, what I would like to know, as well as the questions asked at the beginning of this post, is if this is sufficient, or if it is too simplistic and if it will lead me astray when dealing with those that are hung to the Right rather than Left or Centre?

As a note: I know I should probably revisit some of the threads that have exploded on JU recently, but time is pressing and the amount spent on this has already cost enough.

Comments (Page 1)
2 Pages1 2 
on Jul 10, 2004
God Marco..have you gone fascist?

If politics is the art of controlling one's environment then the right wing are the masters.

It looks pretty good in theory doesn't it?

Dyl xx
on Jul 10, 2004
No Dyl, I haven't gone facist

I was trying to understand a point of view other than my own, something alien to me, but something real and influential nonetheless. If i can at least articulate it then i might try and come to understand it. If i leave out my own prejudice and state it as i think others (believers) might see it, then i might be able to see it without the "i" contaminating it.

However. Obviously from the response, this has been a failed experiment.

Marco XX
on Jul 10, 2004
I'm reading this on the message board of the "Political Machine" website.... I think you are going to be getting some traffic really soon. Great title by the way.
on Jul 10, 2004
I see. Have you read Little Whip's article on the KKK? Think it's along the same lines, kind of- trying to understand prejudice by explaining her involvement with it and why..I thought it was pretty enlightening.

As for this being a "failed article"- It'll probably pick up soon.

Besides, an articulate, thoughtful article is never a failed article. Even without a plethora of comments.

I'm going to get drunk now. Have a good day..

Dyl xxx
on Jul 10, 2004
protects the ability of business to operate in an unfettered and truly Global fashion, seeing this as the only way that economic prosperity can be obtained for the greatest number of people, not necessarily all people.
Extremely accurate... Conservatives fight to keep American businesses unfettered -- which usually, but not always, means left alone. They certainly claim that this benefits the greatest number of Americans, although it is probably more accurate to say that they assume that they are or can be part of the group that benefits.

That not necessarily all the people will benefit is generally tied to a belief in the survival of the fittest, and a view that economic fitness is close enough to human fitness that we do not need to be unduly concerned about the losers.

politics as a way of shoring up the moral order that has taken our civilisation millennia to formulate
True, but you need to add that conservatives believe that the threat to this goal does NOT come from the ability of business to operate in an unfettered manner. This is the spot where conservatives are on the shakiest ground, because without this piece, the conservative movement would crumble, with business conservatives and social conservatives becoming worst enemies.

It would seem that the major players undermining the morality of our culture are all in it for profit. But conservatives believe that the individual has free will, and so, even if more citizens act against the established moral order after viewing Hollywood entertainment for thousands of hours, it is the lack of self control of the individual, not the business behavior, which is to be blamed. Ms. Jackson's halftime breast caused an uproar, but you notice that the issue was not delved into too deeply, and allowed to pass -- with the assistance of liberals who enable this weak link in conservatism to go untested by their disdain for examining individual morals.

politics as a way to both defend your own country and its borders, but also as a way of defending alliances and interests overseas
This, I believe, needs more thought. Most moderates and liberals would agree with your statement. The disagreement would be over which alliances and which interests need defending. After all, it was not so long ago that conservatives were in opposition to President Clinton's actions in the Balkans. Both liberals and conservatives are willing to lead our country into foreign adventures, but they both mistrust adventures chosen by an administration they do not feel loyal to.

However, it would be fair to say that conservatives deeply mistrust international institutions and are more likely to believe that it is in our country's best interests to act unilaterally, as well as to refuse to follow past international agreements that are not to our current advantage.
It would also be fair to say that conservatives are also more likely to define patriotism as a matter of militarism (although this sure didn't apply in the Balkans )
on Jul 10, 2004

American politics is split by 4 different philospohies.  conservative, liberal these definitions are too general to get into the specifics you provide.  Here are the 4 main philosophies:

Jeffersonian

Jacksonian

Wilsonian

Hamilitonians

http://artsandscience.concordia.ca/poli329ml/lectures/lecture16_txt.html

has a reasonable explanation of the 4 but there are other places that offer better ones I am sure.

on Jul 10, 2004
Jeffersonian
Jacksonian
Wilsonian
Hamilitonians


Here's an interesting article about Jacksonian foreign policy

My favorite quote (edited for the youngsters)...

The whole point of Jacksonianism is "You leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. You play fair with me and I'll play fair with you. But if you f*** with me, I'll kill you."


on Jul 10, 2004

Indeed.  Conservatives and liberals borrow bits and peices from these 4 philosphies.

My personal philosophy is very very heavy in the Jacksonian.  Bush, by contrast, is largely Wilsonian and Hamiltonian who pretends to have Jacksonian values.

A Wilsonian would have favored the war in Iraq as a way of spreading democracy in the region (which is one of the goals Bush and his neocon team want).  I think that's a nice side effect but in my mind, I wanted Saddam out because Saddam had screwed with us one too many times.

Modern Democrats tend to be Jeffersonian and Wilsonian.  Reagan would have been probably half Hamiltonian and half Jacksonian.

When you read about those 4 philosophies, it becomes apparent why the concepts of conservative and liberal are useless if you're going to start trying to get into very specific philosophies.

on Jul 10, 2004
My personal philosophy is very very heavy in the Jacksonian.

As is mine.

I think that's a nice side effect but in my mind, I wanted Saddam out because Saddam had screwed with us one too many times.

That was my major reason for supporting the war. I wanted him out so much that I had a very hard time getting my head around the thinking of the protesters.
on Jul 10, 2004
Now we have people who were against the war in the first place trying to claim that Bush led us into a war based on "lies".  What they don't understand (or choose to understand) is that the weapons of mass destruction were an irrelevant issue.  Our support for the war had ntohign to do with WMDs.  We wanted him gone for years. 
on Jul 10, 2004
We wanted him gone for years.


I was very disappointed when the first Bush didn't finish that job.
on Jul 11, 2004

Here are the 4 main philosophies:

Jeffersonian
Jacksonian
Wilsonian
Hamilitonians



From another site:

Jeffersonian (foriegn policy to protect the US democratic system) - anti-war / cautionary approach; importance of protecting domestic civil liberties; the blowback arguement - questioning whether our own actions contributed to the rise in Middle-East terrorism

Wilsonian (foreign policy based on moral principles)- emphasizes the importance of multilateralism; of paying our UN dues; want to put Osama bin Laden on trial in an international court; see internationalism as the way of fighting terrorism

Jacksonian (foreign policy based on domestic populism and military might) - the angry approach - they bombed us, we will get them; do not want to a limited war - no limits on military actions and collateral damage

Hamiltonian (foreign policy to protect international commerce) - need to fight the war, but need a crafty strategy that may limit our tactics in order to win and influence friends; need for international cooperation, esp. foriegn intelligence agencies and banking systems
on Jul 11, 2004
Jacksonian (foreign policy based on domestic populism and military might) - the angry approach - they bombed us, we will get them; do not want to a limited war - no limits on military actions and collateral damage


It's not about anger. It's about not letting it happen again. It is not about unlimited war, nor unlimited collateral damage. It is about sufficient aggression to get the job done. It is about taking out the enemy, and then returning home to enjoy those freedoms that were protected.

Jacksonians do not want to go to war. But they will to protect their way of life.
on Jul 11, 2004
CS Guy, Draginol and Historyishere - thanks for your contribution. I should have known better seeing as American politics is not the ad hoc, throw together improvisation that some people think it to be. There seems to be complex philosophical and doctrinal systems at work, interacting, mutating and then influencing policy dirction and then the execution of that policy.

I am still not sure if the the politicians and military men operate and move with such deliberation and awarness of their philosophical roots, it could be a matter of the commentators being more aware and possessing more perspective than the players. But, for the meantime, i will give them my benefit of the doubt. The three of you have shown me that there is a lot i have to catch up on before i can confidently formulate my own opinion.

Marco
on Jul 11, 2004
Now we have people who were against the war in the first place trying to claim that Bush led us into a war based on "lies". What they don't understand (or choose to understand) is that the weapons of mass destruction were an irrelevant issue. Our support for the war had ntohign to do with WMDs. We wanted him gone for years.

What you are leaving out of the equation is that the administration sold the war as being about WMDs. Certainly many Americans agree with your motivations for war -- maybe to the point that, in their minds they don't really remember the dialogue leading up to war. The WMD argument swayed many people, who are now understandably unhappy that this justification for war turned out to be untrue -- and the claim that WMDs were irrelevant fans the flames of suspicion that the argument was a lie to begin with. ,p. As to the idea that American politics breaks down into these four standpoints rather than simply conservative and liberal... This trend does a better job of tracing the sources of political thought, but it does a poorer job of describing current political identity.
2 Pages1 2